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Post by mikemike on May 3, 2012 17:30:11 GMT -5
I have a lot of respect for most of the people on this forum. For the most part you are all very knowledgeable, and helpful.
But seriously guys... Let's for a second consider the outlooks and attitudes of scientists who actually study primates in the wild. Those folks are very experienced, unquestionabily experts. Do you ever see them going out with the type of attutude that some of you guys have? Do you see them having any success if they did?
Firearms, seriously?
Also, I'd be willing to bet there is not a single person here who has ever used bear spray on an animal in the wild. I'd even go so far as to bet that there is no one here who even personally knows anyone who has done this.
As for cougars, get real... For all their astonishing capibilities, except for the rarest of cases they simply don't attack adult humans. I only personally know of one case in BC in the past few deacdes where an adult has been killed by a cougar. It's barely even worth thinking about; as an adult male statistically I'll wager that you'd be more likely to be hit by lightning in the wild than being attacked by a cougar in te wild.
As someone pointed out semi-domesticated amimals are far more of a problem than wild ones. Apart from the proverbial mother-with-cub scenario the majority of close calls that happened are likely a result of people being fools to start with, especially when it comes to semi-domesticated animals. For the most part people who need firearms to get themselves out of a situation usually bare some measure of responsibility for the situation becoming a close call in the first place.
You'll probably counter with a bunch of stories about some guy you know who had this or that happened in the wild. Fair enough, but think about what I'm saying here:
As someone once said "you don't find sasquatch, sasquatch finds you"
In terms of what we are looking for I'd suggest that outlook and attitude in the wild are absolutely critical. I am sure if you asked people who actually study primates in the wild they'd say the same thing. The bottom line is if you go out with a tense attitude, carrying firearms and a bunch of "what if" baggage you are significantly going to reduce your chances of being found.
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Richard
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Post by Richard on May 3, 2012 19:42:33 GMT -5
Mikemike - I am afraid that you are making far too many assumptions. If you read the posts, I recommend a firearm in known bear country, and not just down a path somewhere - I am talking about deep in the woods, where you have no help or any assistance. Jason can probably tell you some stories about humans just laughing off OC spray - animals do too. So, sorry, I can unfortunately tell you some horror stories, where a firearm HAS saved a life and more than one occasion where someone has had to use pepper spray against a wild critter. Did it work? Yes, however in some places I am not willing to take that chance. For the record, there are many zoologists/biologists that carry firearms when out in the bush - there are MANY places that you are crazy if you are not suitably prepared. To each their own I suppose, but be very careful about dismissing more than just a single person's beliefs on protection in the woods. My motto always has been "Fail to prepare, then prepare to fail" ... I plan on coming home loved ones at the end of a backcountry hike. Richard PS Here are some of the more documented cases of cougar attacks in the last 10 years - mainly US bound. www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm
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Richard
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Post by Richard on May 3, 2012 21:04:29 GMT -5
I am going to refrain from writing what needs to be said, out of respect to the moderators. No one goes out in the bush (firearm or no firearm) looking to get attacked by an animal. To make the victim the culprit is irresponsible, wrong -- and borders on sick. Amen brother! I too wasn't going to make a comment on that line of his - but then you have more self-control than I do ... so folks with sensitive eyes, look away. MikeMike, from that ignorant and asinine comment you made I must also assume that you blame rape victims for the attack, or seniors for being mugged? People bring $h!T on themselves eh? That attitudes doesn't border on sick, it *IS* sick. Remind me NEVER to be caught anywhere near you, in the bush or in public ... Karma is a pregnant dog and I do not want to be caught in the $H!Tstorm that is heading your way. Richard For the record mikemike wrote: Quote: "For the most part people who need firearms to get themselves out of a situation usually bare some measure of responsibility for the situation becoming a close call in the first place."
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Post by mikemike on May 4, 2012 3:08:36 GMT -5
I certainly don't blame the victims any of those things, and I agree completely I would be sick if I did. I apologise for not explaining myself better if that's what you thought I was saying, and since you both thought that is what I was implying there is a good chance that I was indeed at fault for not explaining myself very well. Sorry.
Just to clear things up: I was referring to people who do foolish things while thinking in the back of their mind that carrying a firearm will give them a way out of whatever idiocy they get themselves into. I wouldn't put anyone here in that category, and certainly I was **not** in any way shape or form talking about the very rare actual cases where people are attacked out of the blue due to no fault of their own. But those cases are indeed very rare.
As far as my politics or views on firearms go don't make asumptions there either. I usually don't put personal info out on the net, but the fact is I am an active duty peace office, and carry firearms on duty and if the situaton arrises, as it sometimes does, I most definitely use pepper spray on duty. Jason C has my real name and phone number from when I registered for his trackers course; I'd rather be left alone, but if anyone doubts what I'm saying he can call me up and I'll be happy to verifiy it. I am a Fed, so who knows, if he instructs Federally I might even have met him before.
So yeah, relax and get a grip guys, I am not injecting politics into things, and I have no problem with anyone legally carrying firearms, and I support your right to do so. To even take it a step further, and with a heavy heart, I'd even say that I would not have a problem if someone went out with the adgenda and the means to shoot a specimine. Let's face it, on some levels that would be the best thing that could happen, because if the PG film wasn't good enough no film or other type of evidence will ever be good enough. But in a practical sense I seriously doubt anyone's intent to actually adopt such an adgenda and moreso doubt their ability to carry it out.
Anyoo, the point of my post (which by taking things personally everyone seems to have completey missed) is that I maintain that attitude and outlook are absolutely citical in the search, and in that very specific sense the level of fear of getting attacked by an animal in the wild is detramental and largely not justified, and also that the carrying of firearms & weapons while searching reinforces that attitude.
I have personally encountered both cougar and bear in the area I frequent around selesse mountain, and as I spend a great deal of time in that area year round, rain or shine, I anticipate I will encounter them again and do so without any problems.
I want you guys to know that the ONLY reason I even posted in this thread is because I want you guys to succeed in what you are setting out to do. I don't want anyone to fail or get hurt due to not being poperly prepaired to go into the field. However pehaps my views on how attitude and outlook affect the search belong in a different thread, or if no one's interested maybe I should just keep them to myself.
At any rate, Richard in particular, some of what you said was really out of line. If I played a part in that by not explaining myself well, again, I take responsibility for that and apologise, but still much what you said was totally uncalled for. I am skilled at what I do, and I consider myself a reliable and good person. All misunderstandings aside, I don't think you are in any position to judge me in such a personal and rancorous way.
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Post by Jason C. on May 4, 2012 3:40:25 GMT -5
Out of respect to Mike, I deleted my posts. I wrongly got heated -- not knowing where he was coming from. If Mike had been a fireman, I would have left it. But I have a soft spot for cops -- and blonds with brown eyes. (DON'T TELL MY AUBURN HAIRED WIFE!)
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Post by mikemike on May 4, 2012 5:17:24 GMT -5
LOL, that was not necessary bro. You weren't out of line, as I said it was mostly my fault for not being clear enough. Bygones, seriously. If you are ever up Chilliwack Lake road and you see my Silver car parked across from the fish farm stop and say hi. I am usually out there doing meditation atleast 4 days out of my block of 5 off. .. As per cougars not attacking adults except in the rarest of circumstances; I did want to add though, in both a statistical and practical sense what I am saying is 100% accurate, and I can back it up. According to the BC Ministry of Enviromnent's website in the past 100 years there has been a grand total of 10 cougar attacks on the BC Mainland, and only 1 of those attacks resulted in a fatality. The write-up adds "the vast majority of these (non fatal)attacks were on children under the age of 16." As for the website vilnoori linked, from what I can tell over the course of a decade-and-a-half there are only 20 or so cases of cougars attacking adults listed, and only a few of them were fatal, and that is for all of North America. To give a frame of reference of how rare that actually is: during that same time-frame approximately 47 adults were killed by lightning just in Canada alone, and approximately 30 adults were killed by bee stings just in Canada alone... There is also a detailed statistical study by Tom Chester on the odds of being killed by a cougar; the study concludes by saying: "Bottom Line: You expect on average to be killed by a car at the very minimum 320 times before you expect to be killed by a mountain lion. So you really shouldn't start worrying about a mountain lion killing you until at least 160 of your hiking companions have been killed by automobiles. " Here are the links if anyone wants to verify: tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attack_odds.htmlwww.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/cougsf.htm.. P.S. If I'd been a fireman, I'd probably have all the blonds with brown eyes to myself. ;D
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Richard
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Thinking I should be out in the bush ...
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Post by Richard on May 4, 2012 9:32:41 GMT -5
So yeah, relax and get a grip guys OK - I'm done with this conversation. Unlike Jason I will keep my posts intact as they were written - obviously either MikeMike has no wish to be part of a greater community or is a troll.
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Post by mikemike on May 5, 2012 3:04:50 GMT -5
Wow, well, if you take count I already apologized (or said sorry) in the post where I tried to explain things better a total of 3 times. I'm not sure what else to do other than to apologize for a 4th time. Which I do. Seriously man, I am sorry that what I've said upset you.
Judging by your posts collectively, you seem like a good guy, and I have no doubt that you are.
As far as your comment about my not wanting to be a part of the greater community goes; you are probably right to some extent.
To be honest since I am a Buddhist and do meditation and stuff like that I am already a bit of an outsider where I work. I think I'd be more than a little hesitant to openly admit to people I work with that I am interested in sasquatch or to blunder into having them find out by other means. If I was retired it might be different, but for now that's just the way it is. To that end, I really have immense respect for people like JasonC BillR and TomS who come-what-may have opted to enter out into the open with their interest in the subject. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of crap they would have had to put up with because of that. There is an old saying: "you can tell who the pioneers are because they are the ones with the arrows in their backs..." ~It's like that I guess.
So if I have any role in the greater community it's that I spend a very big chunk of time each week at peace in the wild. I just keep my eyes open, my handicam handi, and if I ever encounter anything worth reporting I'll report it pronto to the people here who are qualified to investigate it. If anyone has any expectations of my role in the greater community beyond that, I guess I'll have to apologize for a 5th time.
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Richard
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Thinking I should be out in the bush ...
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Post by Richard on May 5, 2012 10:58:04 GMT -5
Strange - telling someone to "relax and get a grip" isn't what I would deem to be an apologetic tone. No difference in someone saying "I'm sorry you idiot", an "apology" followed by an insult is worst than no apology at all. Remember there are no additional behavior queues in a written message save the words themselves.
Something to consider during your next online social interaction.
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Post by mikemike on May 5, 2012 16:36:07 GMT -5
Strange - telling someone to "relax and get a grip" isn't what I would deem to be an apologetic tone. No difference in someone saying "I'm sorry you idiot", an "apology" followed by an insult is worst than no apology at all. Remember there are no additional behavior queues in a written message save the words themselves. Something to consider during your next online social interaction. I can assure you that it wasn't meant as an insult per se, but I totally see your point. There is always a certain percentage of times when telling someone to "relax" will have the exact opposite effect. And I can see why it did in this case. Funny story ...I'll always remember a guy at work squaring off with an officer and saying "NO, it's not time for me to 'calm down' it's time for YOU to get excited!!" I also agree that it's important to keep in mind that in online interaction that (apart from the proverbial emoticons) there are no additional behavior queues in a written message save the words themselves. ~That being the case it makes it all the more important that we look at the words someone is writting in a collective sense rather than focusing in on one thing to the exclusion of all else. Don't you agree? It has been rewarding for me that I've looked at the collective content you've written on this site sized you up as a good guy and stated that to be the case. I am pretty confident that if you do the same for me it would yield the same result to the benefit of us both. But either way, you are entitled to your own opinion about me and everything else. My apology is sincere though, and as it stands, I very much hope that you accept it.
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Sheldon
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Post by Sheldon on May 5, 2012 22:39:14 GMT -5
And you did an admirable job!
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Richard
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Post by Richard on May 5, 2012 23:18:12 GMT -5
My apology is sincere though, and as it stands, I very much hope that you accept it. Thank you for that - next time we get together as a group let me buy you a coffee! R
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duallie
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Post by duallie on May 6, 2012 13:11:37 GMT -5
so, mikemike, just how much were you willing too wager about nobody on here having used or knowing someone who has used bearspray on an animal? you sure make some bold claims. anyone who owns bearspray should at least test it to see how it sprays and what it's range is. don't wait until an attack to try it for the first time. any keep note of expiry dates. most are never used, so when the date has expired, take it out and use it. see how it works and what it's capabilities are. take care not to spray into the wind though. mikemike, you seem to really love your stats. so, you are just reading all the things you can find on the net and basing all your claims from those? don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet. so what if one's odds are very, very remote of being attacked by a cougar, why take the chance? it's still better to be prepared for the worst. i've had a cougar follow me for an entire day. i crossed his track in the snow at the start of my hike. he had just went down the hill that i was going up. i spent the rest of the day stopping and looking all around every so often. i knew he was there but never once saw him. i hiked up to the top, along the ridge, and back down into the valley a few kilometres lower. i crossed the bush-road and did a walk in on the other side. i walked a big loop and when crossing over my track, there was the cougar track walking right alongside my own. i backtracked to where i crossed the road, and there were his tracks right beside mine. i hiked back up the road to where the truck was. during that time, after i was dropped off up high to begin my hike, my friend drove down lower and parked the truck. he unloaded the quad and went back up. he went in on every trail he could find. he said he found my track a couple times and a cougar track was with them. that cougar followed me right from when i crossed his track at the start of my hike. i was never truly worried because there was alot of rabbitt through-out the area and it's plentiful with deer as well. i had a feeling he was there, but figured he was more curious about what's walking through his territory. but, i watched for him constantly, stopping and doing complete 360 scans. and i stopped and had lunch on the top on high ground with a great vantage point of the area. not once did i ever catch a glimpse of anything. he was there the whole time, yet was able to remain hidden. the point is, had he wanted, he could have taken me out any time he wanted to. why lessen your odds of survival by not being prepared? i'm a million times more worried of a cougar attack than a bear attack. "you don't find sasquatch, sasquatch finds you." really? if that were the case, there would never be any sightings. why on earth would sasquatch seek out a sighting? and sasquatch does not read people's minds or their emotions. animals have no clue what that rifle in one's hands is. using that as an explanation for why a hunter almost never sees a bf is ridiculous. again, just wondering how much you were putting up for that bet of yours? i think there are a few of us that are ready to collect.
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Post by mikemike on May 6, 2012 17:34:57 GMT -5
Hehe, well I'm not claiming to be Daniel Boones big brother; in some regards I am completely clueless in the bush, but I wouldn't exactly put myself in the category of someone who just reads books either. i've had a cougar follow me for an entire day. You once got followed by a cougar for an entire day and didn't get attacked, and I was once on an airplane for an entire day and it didn't crash. The worst case scenario of either of those two situations gives pause for thought, but realistically, what are the odds? I can't say I blame you. I too have encountered both cougar and bear in the wild firsthand and in terms of theoretically being attacked by one or the other I would choose the bear hands down. At least you might see it coming. I'm honestly not worried about it though. I don't think a sasquatch would seek out a sighting under any circumstances. At best they might be curious enough and at ease enough to get caught peeking. The angle I am playing at here is that they see us far more often than we see them. So what are we as individuals bringing to the table to show them? In part I disagree; not that a sasquatch is necessarily anything special compared to any other animal in terms of what it could potentially pick up on. But I feel as in most any case of dealing with animals in the wild it's a combination of attitude and physical indicators. If you are a hunter you know that animals in the wild can pick up on a novice hunters buck fever, even seemingly in the absence of any other signs that there is imminent danger. I don't see why the opposite wouldn't also be the case: that an animal could pick up on someone who is calm and at ease. I'll give you a real life example that you can try yourself. The next time you see a crow keep your eyes on it and casually reach down and pick up a rock with the intention that you are going to throw it at the crow. I'll bet the crow picks up on it and is gone before you have a chance to even cock your arm back. Even if a crow has never seen an object thrown before and has no idea that it is in proximate danger it will pick up on your overall queues and make tracks, try it and see. I'll give you a converse example too: One of my co-workers was telling me that he went over to a friends house after not having been there for a few years and when he drove up to the house he was thrilled to again see his friend's large dog (whom he knew firsthand to always be friendly) laying in the driveway. My co-worker jumped out of the car and ran over to the dog and started playing with it and clowning around, and the dog seemed happy and played along for a few minutes. My co-worker then went up to the house & rang the doorbell. He went inside and when he entered the house low-and-behold there was a big dog already inside the house, and upon recognizing it my co-worker commented "oh, I thought that was your dog in the driveway, I was just out there playing with it" the friend responded "seriously? You were playing with 'that' dog??" He then went on to relate that it was actually that very dangerous stray dog out there that had been terrorizing the whole neighborhood and animal control had been trying to catch it for over a week. A few days later my co-worker again went to his friends house and again he encountered the stray dog, but this time in the back of his mind he knew the story and said that the dog pickup on his apprehension instantly; it seemed aggressive and wouldn't let him approach even if he'd wanted to... Well, Richard's generously buying me a coffee down the trail so how's this: I'll by a beer for anyone here who has firsthand pepper sprayed an animal in wild, or knows someone firsthand who has done it. Limit one per incident, bring your own pretzels.
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billr
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Post by billr on May 7, 2012 0:15:32 GMT -5
Ok I am not going to get into the debate, as I said I don't normally carry pepper spray or a firearm unless I am hunting. I am in my mid 40's now and started hunting in elementary school, so I have a pretty fair idea about what some hunters do here in BC.
In my experience bear attacks on hunters (black bear) are under reported unless the hunter sustains injury. Many hunters I know who like myself don't hunt black bears will buy a black bear tag simply for the reason that if they have to shoot a problem bear they don't have to report it.
There are also the unethical hunters (very small minority) that that will simply shoot, shovel and shut up.
Not counting my great grandfather that was killed and partially eaten by a grizzly in the Yukon, here are some events that I have personal knowledge of; 1) About 25 years ago my one brother in law and a friend of mine were up the far side of Stave Lake. It was the day before deer season opened and they had boated across the lake. Their plan was to hike in a ways then set up camp and start hunting first thing opening morning. They noticed bear sign so they both loaded their rifles and kept going. At some point a bear burst out of the bush and attacked them, they both emptied their rifles into it, and at some points the bear was actually between them. The bear ran off into the bush and died. After they verified that the bear was dead, they hiked back to the boat, got across the lake and phoned the C.O. from a pay phone. The C.O. went to the scene, investigated it and ruled it as a justified shooting.
2) This incident took place in 1991 up at Pink Mountain. It was early September and there was four of us up moose hunting. On the second day up there myself and one f the guys I was with came up on a griz with 2 cubs. The wind was in our favour and we were about 100 to 125 yards away, they didn't know we were there so we quietly left the area. The next couple of days we stayed away from that area. On day 5 or 6 of our hunt 3 hunters up from Abbotsford set camp up about 40 to 50 yards from our camp. We were in a trailer but they were tenting it. After they set up camp they came over for a chat, we warned them about the griz in the area. They basically told us we were paranoid (we kept a spotless camp and had our moose hanging at the cooler at Pink Mountain instead of a tree) For the next few days they tore up the other side of the road on their atv's. On their second day they got a moose and hung it on the far side of the road a few hundred yards from camp. They did not head int Pink Mountain for a shower. In the middle of the night we were wakened by a POW, POW, POW, our trailer door was on the opposite side of their camp. The four of us run around the trailer to see the three of them standing there in their underware with rifles and flashlights in hand. They claimed a bear was trying to get in their tent, and they shot at it. They asked us to help them look for it. I told them they were nuts if they thought I would look for a possibly wounded grizzly in the pitch black of night. We took a quick look around the clearing and went to bed, they spent the rest of the night in their truck. At first light we were all out looking for the grizzly (we knew it was a grizzly from the foot prints around the tent, the muddy prints on the side of the tent were smeared) We never found any blood or other signs that they hit the grizzly and we looked most of the day. Those guys packed up that night and told us they would report it to the CO's on their way out.
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