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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2008 4:47:03 GMT -5
And I swore I would never reply on this website..I was fairly recently told by a friend who is native to turn away and not make eye contact with them...
look... but to be safe keep it short.
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vilnoori
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Post by vilnoori on Oct 11, 2008 18:24:42 GMT -5
Very sound advice with any large primate present, and even with most culture groups of humans. We are oddballs in thinking that looking you in the eye means you are honest and non-threatening. For most cultures and animals a direct look in the eye is perceived as a threat, and is used as intimidation sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2008 21:31:06 GMT -5
Good Point Vilnoori! Regarding eye contact. I'm glad to hear your voice tuffyy and although you are hesitant about sharing it via this site, i am really interested in understanding the rational from a native perspective! Another thing i was thinking about was the "rock throwing". Although the evidence is limited, there seems to be at least some inkling towards "territory". Most recently, up at Ruby Creek, and then there's the story of the miners at Ape Valley (if you recall, one of the miners shot the "creature" 3 times in the back, and that night, a whole party of creatures was said to destroy the cabin by throwing stones at it - the story was later recanted to claim the miner shot the creature in the back AFTER they attacked the cabin - which is a little inconsistent since the miners all claim to have no windows and no idea who or what was causing such terror. Incidentally, "a posse" of reporters and "police" later confirmed the destruction of the miners' cabin. (there are also other stories related to rock throwing) On another note, I was talking to another member earlier, and brought up the incident at Ruby Creek in relation to the claim of a sasquatch response to salted salmon/fish - this member mentioned that apes have a similar behavior where they "freak out" persay. I would be really REALLY interested in learning more about this behavior and understand you have an extensive background in primates? I'd appreciate any knowledge you are able to share in regards to that type of behavior!! (links would be appreciated too!) Chrissie
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Post by bigfoothunter on Oct 12, 2008 1:50:42 GMT -5
The incident mentioned in the previous post occurred at a place called 'Ape Canyon'. There were two separate shooting incidents according to Thomas Steenburg. The first occurred before the attack on the cabin when one of the miners said he shot at one of the creatures as it was peeking around a tree. The miner saw the bark fly off the tree where the bullet(s) hit, but did not know if he had hit the animal.
Then the attack came on the cabin. How the miners knew it was the creatures (mountain devils as they were called in those parts) was because the chinking was knocked lose in one area of the cabin and they had seen the arm of one of the creatures come through that opening.
The next thing that happened was the following day when Fred Beck saw one of the creatures near the cliff and Beck shot it, causing it to fall in the ravine below. The body was never recovered.
The Ruby Creek incident was investigated by John Green and then later by Ivan Sanderson. Jeanie Chapman had said that the animal had entered an out building and had opened a barrel of salted salmon. Signs at the scene appeared to tell Jeanie that the creature had tasted the salmon and then possibly went to the river to get a drink. There was no signs that showed that the animal had become aggressive.
While it has been said that making eye contact with a wild animal can be viewed as threat to the animal, there are countless sighting reports where when the Sasquatch became aware that it had been seen ... it showed no aggression and merely went on its way.
Bigfoothunter
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 8:26:05 GMT -5
At the present time I consider my self blessed to live and work in the bush on Stuart Island at the mouth of Bute Inlet. This general area has some of the wildest and most ruggedly beautiful country remaining in North America. Bute Inlet and the surrounding watersheds also contain some of the world's highest population concentrations of grizzly and black bears.
Over the last couple of months we have been doing chinook salmon enhancement work on the Phillips River located at the head of Phillips Arm. Due to low returning numbers of salmon on the Phillips River this year, the grizzly bears are very hungry and the odd one can be brave and even aggressive if it considers our captured salmon their food source.
During my life I have had a good deal of experience with bears. One thing I have learned over the last 50 years is that just like "all" wild animals "some bears" (both black and grizzly) are "unpredictable" and can at times be dangerous.
I don't think I'd be too far wrong in saying that if a person alone in the rugged wilderness was to have the misfortune of bumping into an abnormally aggressive bear or sasquatch, that person may simply vanish without a trace.
I'll have a little more on people mysteriously vanishing later. Time for me to head for the bush and go to work.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 9:27:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Ken,
I sure don't have the experience that you do, and feel this board is blessed by having someone that does have that kind of experience - you make the point that all bears don't always act like bears are supposed to!! In my own experience, they stay outta my way, and i stay outta their way, usually they run off if they see me in the car, on foot, they get a bit more curious, but ultimately we go our seperate ways without incident - however, there are them bears, both black and grizz that are completely unpredictable. We had a mauling a few blocks from me last month, and this black bear seemed pretty healthy otherwise, good weight for age, etc - it took several people, and finally the threat of a motor vehicle to get this bear off its victim whose only fault was in gardening in the front yard of a suburban area!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 9:45:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Bigfoothunter, I've taken the liberty to post a paragraph from Patterson and Murphy's book in regards to the rock throwing incident at Mt. St. Helens in the early 90's so that we all may have the same facts: 1921 – Fred Beck and four other prospectors, Gabe Lefever, a Marion Smith, Roy Smand and John Peterson. A mine in a canyon on the east side of Mt. St. Helens. They saw a tremendous giant looking out from behind a tree. One of the group quickly fired his rifle, shooting at the thing’s head. He was sure he had killed it. However, when they reached the spot where he should have fallen, there was nothing. As they looked up the were surprised to see the giant running over the hill. Next day, this time Mr. Beck fired three shots, hitting the creature in the back each time. The giant tumbled over the cliff into the canyon. (Thereafter it has been called Ape Canyon) They hunted for him but great torrents of water coming off the mountain flooded the canyon floor washing away anything the fell into it. They did not find a sign of him. They returned to their cabin, had a good supper, and steeled down for the night. THEN IT HAPPENED!! Tremendous boulders began pelting their cabin roof, rammed their huge bodies against the door and tore at the cabin walls with their hands! This fierce attack kept up all night and by dawn there were five scared and weary miners. When the miners were sure they had gone they quickly gathered up what was needed to make the trip to town and hurriedly took off down the mountain. Mr. Beck warned them all to say nothing of their experience as surely no one would believe them, but halfway to town they met two young prospectors and one of the party spilled the beans. This made Beck furious and he threatened to shoot their heads off if they said another word. A posse of law enforcement and reporters went up to the area, and found prints and a beaten up cabin. Newspapers ran big stories on their being attacked… Patterson, R, and Murphy, C. 1972. The Bigfoot Film Controversy, p74-75. In a seperate interview, none with Tom as far as i know, Fred Beck claimed that the shooting of the creature in the back occured "after" the hit on the cabin. Perhaps his way of "justifying" the shooting of a creature in the back three times? In regards to the Ruby Creek incident, all reports indicate the "fish from the barrel was strewn all over the place" - i don't think it would be too far a strech, especially since the creatures prints showed him henceforth getting water down at the river, and the fish was strewn in what appeared to be a hissy fit of sorts, that this "creature" displayed at the very least an annoyance of some kind. Chrissie
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Post by bigfoothunter on Oct 12, 2008 10:55:07 GMT -5
www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/fredbeck.htmHere is a link to one of the question and answer interviews of Fred Beck. John Green and Ivan Sanderson had both in interviewed Beck. Steenburg saying that the Sanderson interview of Beck offered more details in his opinion. As you know, Tom Steenburg has quite an extensive collection of materials and it might be worth your while to ask to see what else he has on the Ape Canyon incident if you are truly that interested in it. The Ruby Creek incident told of a creature (Sasquatch) emptying a barrel of salted salmon onto the ground. I wasn't there to see the salmon as they laid on the ground, but I can imagine what dumping a barrel of them onto the ground could look like. It's probably not too much of a stretch to imagine that the Sasquatch smelled the fish in the barrel and this was why it went for the barrel in the first place. Common sense would tell me that it was probably the salt on the fish that caused it to want to travel the short distance down to the river to get a drink. To go from that sketchy information to assuming it became 'freaked out' seems to come from more of an overactive imagination than the evidence. Bigfoothunter
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2008 11:09:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Bigfoothunter I'm just on my way out the door so will keep it short. I'm interested in learning the potential for danger as it relates to the creature we know as sasquatch. No debate needed You have your imagination, i have mine, i also have the comments by the son in law whose second hand version - his father in law, as a boy, saw the fish - claims that the bin wasn't just dumped, rather, the fish were "strewn". Happy Hunting! Chrissie
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Post by Gerry on Oct 12, 2008 11:12:32 GMT -5
For those of you interested in reading about Ruby Creek...Ostman..and Thomas Roe's encounter on Mica Mountain..please go here on the Website...! www.westcoast-sasquatch.com/classics.htmlApe Canyon did not make the grade because it did not happen here in B.C! [Admin] On the other hand, one of the most compelling incidents which happened in Alberta will soon be joining hese fine reports..and that is the Crandall Campground Incident [sp?]!! Google it!
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Post by bigfoothunter on Oct 12, 2008 12:45:12 GMT -5
If you or anyone else comes up with some stats on the Sasquatch being dangerous, by all means share it with the forum. Is there a potential danger ... that could be said about all large animals and even people who enter the bush without protection.
The son-in-law that you heard the second hand report about his father-in-law who was adopted by the Chapman's and had come back to the farm the day after the incident is named David Schnieder. David made it a point to tell us (you may recall that I was standing there listening to David as well) that 'Bill' Chapman (the adopted son of Jeanie and George Chapman) used to get to talking about the incident when he was enjoying his liquor. That 'Bill' was not there on the day the incident had occurred. So all I am saying is that one may wish to pay closer attention to someone like Jeanie Chapman who was there. One example for it being better to do it this way is that David recalled Bill saying that only one child was home on the day the event occurred, but I seem to recall Jeanie saying otherwise. It is these kinds of things that can get the facts wrong when recanting old stories many years after the fact. If that story was told when Bill was 'enjoying his drinking' as David told it, then it could be that Bill's account was basically correct, but not accurate. David conceded to that fact at least twice while I was there talking to him.
And you are correct ... its nothing to debate. Each person should have the right to jump to conclusions as much as they like. There should however be an attempt to conduct our investigations in a logical and sensible manner. While directed at no one in particular ... I will leave everyone with this one wise piece of advice that does not come from me, but rather from Rene Dahinden ....
"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.”
Bigfoothunter
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vilnoori
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Post by vilnoori on Oct 13, 2008 0:20:11 GMT -5
Hi chrissie, I'm no ape expert but I grew up with monkeys and learned their non-verbal language very well. Subordinates do not look superiors in the eye, but out of the corner of the eye or with a quick glance. If a monkey gets agressive it will approach, looking full in the face, and sometimes will raise the eyebrows and stare down the opponent. If they're really getting angry they will yawn and bare their huge canine teeth, and the next step usually is a screaming fight if the other monkey doesn't back off. Yes, the monkeys would use the same body language for humans they related to.
I'm less sure of the body language of apes, but I know they are incredibly, deceptively strong. And a grin from an ape may be a warning, not a friendly overture.
For both groups, turning a back or backside and looking back over the shoulder is a sign of submissiveness as well as sexual invitation. It seems to be used for both, but more often to defuse aggression. Sometimes sitting and pretending or actually grooming can be a good defuser of tension. Usually the subordinate monkey will groom the superior in rank, and the superior might groom the subordinate, but usually only briefly as a way to reassure them they are not going to beat them up.
Monkey social politics is brutal. Read up about it sometime.
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Post by Gerry on Oct 13, 2008 11:11:17 GMT -5
Tuffy wrote; Well...looks like you just did! ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2008 12:29:27 GMT -5
Vilnoori, i had to laugh out loud!! The description you gave of how monkeys demonstrate that heirarchy reminded me so much of the facial expressions and body language between me and my kids when i'm "pissed off"!! They totally look away, as though to look me straight in the eye they'd melt or something! Your experiences are clearly invaluable and I really do take heed of being more aware of my body language in the bush. I had a black bear show interest in me when i was up at Cheam (sp) mtn a while back - and when i think of that experience in relation to your description, i wonder if my finally having demonstrated what you describe as "submissive" behavior is what finally turned his attn off of me and back to the berries he was munching on - not so much that he thought me another bear, so much as he realized that i wasn't a threat. I'm looking to find a little more information about the "hissy fits", to which i'm not well versed in, at least when it comes to primate behaviors. I recall seeing documentaries where apes seem to get really frustrated and act out in extremely violent nature - it is this particular behavior that has perked my interest because i keep thinking about the salmon "strewn", the rocks pelting down on the miners cabin, the Roosevelt story, etc I'll try to do an internet search of this and will share what i find for sure! Chrissie
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Post by bigfoothunter on Oct 15, 2008 12:44:37 GMT -5
"I had a black bear show interest in me when i was up at Cheam (sp) mtn a while back - and when i think of that experience in relation to your description, i wonder if my finally having demonstrated what you describe as "submissive" behavior is what finally turned his attn off of me ..."
Chrissie, beware of attributing primate behaviors to that of bears. Other considerations: Maybe it was a small bear that was intimidated by your size. Maybe you were not close enough to it for the bear to feel threatened. Maybe it has seen enough people on Mt. Cheam/Archibald to feel comfortable sharing an area with humans. There are lots of considerations here to ponder.
I recently heard it said that you returned a book to Tom Steenburg and when Tom asked if you had actually read the book - you replied that you just read the review. I hope that if you actually do get any books on bear behavior that you don't stop at just reading the desk jackets and/or the reviews for the information that can be found by actually reading the book is immeasurable and can one day save your life ... or someone's life who may be with you at the time.
Seeing a bear at close range and "peeing" your pants will not be found as a recommended reaction to a bear encounter, nor will it be helpful to anyone else being attacked by a bear. I only mention this because you said that you would have done this very thing to Bee Gee if you of had a bear come as close to you unexpectedly as he said that we did. Because you didn't mention the Mt.Cheam bear as causing you to pee yourself, can we assume that it was not very close to you when it observed your presence in the area?
As far as assuming that ape behavior can be applied to the Sasquatch ... I guess its entertaining to imagine the 'what ifs' without any known data to add to one's hypothesis, but what good is it? For instance, how many reports are there where the eye witness looked directly at the Sasquatch and it didn't show a single sign of aggression, but merely retreated into the forest. As far as the hissy fits demonstrated by apes ... I would recommend talking with an expert on that matter. What may look like a hissy fit to us may mean something totally different to the animal. It's like observing two buck deer going at it in the forest - are they playing or are they fighting???
I will also add that there is no evidence of a Sasquatch ever throwing a fit. The story that Teddy Roosevelt told of the trappers in Idaho was a tale passed down from place to place. The fish being strewn on the ground at Ruby creek wasn't specific as to what was meant by that. An 8' tall creature dumping a barrel of salted fish could result in a pretty large area covered on the ground as the fish slid over the ground. The fact that it and Roosevelt story concerning the trappers are vague and so few in number out of the thousands of encounter tales there are where no aggression was displayed is just as telling in the other direction in my opinion. The 'what ifs' and 'could it be possible' make for amusing ways to add excitement to sitting around the campfire or playing 'did you hear that' from inside a truck, but its based on imagination and not fact. Actually seeing the animal and observing its reaction to various stimulus will be the only reliable data to consider. William Roe locked eyes with a Sasquatch in 1958 and the animal only backed up and left the area. The Sasquatch reported at Stokey Creek locked eyes with the guy sitting at the fire-pit and it too merely turned and walked away into the night. Betty Under, Terry Reams, and others have seen the Sasquatch up close and their looking it in the eye didn't cause any confrontations. Reports of the animal walking up and looking through the glass of an automobile and into the face of a witness led to no aggressive behavior. Maybe had these things happened with an ape, then things might have turned out differently, but while similar in appearance ... there is no real data that would make one believe that the Sasquatch has the behavior of that of an ape any more than it has the behavior of a human. If someone has information to the contrary, then I am always wanting to hear it.
Bigfoothunter
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