billr
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Post by billr on Mar 14, 2012 2:14:25 GMT -5
I too have not seen conclusive evidence, however I do firmly believe that something is happening ... and certainly worthy of investigation. Funny that you should say "institutions that you trust" - what defines this trust, and how far does this trust go? Meaning that if said institution(s) made a claim that went against your entire belief structure: "Rocks can talk" would that trust still hold? It may seem a nagging point, but trust is subjective to some other criteria, my question: What is that criteria? If there is none, that simply becomes blind faith. Richard Once again you seem to misunderstand my point. Everyone trusts certain things as "facts" what you accept as facts is based on your upbringing and life experiences I think I mentioned on this forum that my brother in law claims to have had a sighting. But listening to his whole story there are other likely explanations. My wife and daughter have had paranormal experiences in our house including multiple ghost sightings, I do not believe in ghosts, and believe there are other more plausible explanations for what they saw. Years ago an eyewitness to a crime that happened within a couple of yards from them in broad daylight positively identified me as the one who did it. I was arrested and the only thing that saved me was that the actual criminal had a big mouth, he was overheard telling his friend about the crime. The person that heard this phoned the police and when questioned he confessed. I learned then to take eyewitness accounts with a grain of salt
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billr
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Post by billr on Mar 14, 2012 2:24:46 GMT -5
I did not answer your question in my last post. If an institution I trusted came out with a theory that went against what I held to be true, I believe that I would critically exam their evidence as well as any other evidence that may support or reject their claim. I would then base my decision on my investigation.
In a way Sasquatch is a perfect example, I first read John Green's books in the 1970's and was absolutely convinced in the existence of Sasquatch. To this day I hold John Green in high regard, but by questioning his evidence and conclusions, and because of my own experiences I came to my own conclusions.
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Richard
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Thinking I should be out in the bush ...
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Post by Richard on Mar 14, 2012 11:44:17 GMT -5
"Once again you seem to misunderstand my point."
I think that you may have misunderstood mine.
With anything, I think we can agree that evidence is key. The question where we appear to be splitting hairs (no pun intended) is if eye witness testimony is valid.
Given your prior experience I cannot fault you in the slightest for a general questioning nature in terms of "what people saw" - and for the most part I tend to agree.
People often see what they want to see ... that is often not the truth or rather a partial truth.
However we have reached a point in our society where eye witness accounts are no longer acceptable, and yet neither is photographic evidence. The only "real" truth comes down to being able to ascertain something personally - and general consensus appears to be impossible.
The problem lies to where one would draw the line:
If group A reported having a Bigfoot body and given it to scientific group B, is that enough? Are the personal observations made by group B enough to confirm their findings? Even then, there is a certain level of trust that is implied/given to a group when one takes their scientific evidence as fact ... after all the best minds of the world once KNEW that the earth was flat, and that it was at the center of the universe.
Where am I going with this? ... Faith. Really it boils down to questioning one's own level of faith, if one cannot deem that another's statement is accurate (cannot be fully trusted as being factual) then really we cannot be sure of anything.
Richard.
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billr
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Post by billr on Mar 14, 2012 22:32:20 GMT -5
I too have not seen conclusive evidence, however I do firmly believe that something is happening ... and certainly worthy of investigation. Funny that you should say "institutions that you trust" - what defines this trust, and how far does this trust go? Meaning that if said institution(s) made a claim that went against your entire belief structure: "Rocks can talk" would that trust still hold? It may seem a nagging point, but trust is subjective to some other criteria, my question: What is that criteria? If there is none, that simply becomes blind faith. Richard I was not talking about eyewitness accounts in my last response but rather your question of "institutions I trust" and what is the criteria for this trust. Yes in some circumstances my trust is little more than blind faith. I cannot see an electron or independently verify the mass of the sun, however I believe in the scientific method that tells me these things. With my grade 12 physics I presently believe that E=MC2 means that nothing in the universe can surpass the speed of light. If tomorrow it was announced that this constant was proved wrong, I would evaluate the information and adjust my beliefs as I saw fit. Man only moves forward when we are able to discard old truths and replace them with new ones. Earlier I think you mentioned people being sentenced to the death penalty based on eyewitness accounts. I will not get into the politics of the death penalty, however I remember watching a program about an organization in the USA that works with people they think were wrongly convicted. During the programs history they averaged 4 overturned convictions a year were the person was either on death row and/or had served over 10 years of their sentence. In many cases eyewitnesses put them in jail but science (often DNA) set them free.
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billr
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Post by billr on Mar 14, 2012 22:38:55 GMT -5
Below you will find a well known local sasquatch sighting, the eye witness was a reserve cop that got close t the creature.
SIGHTING OF LEGENDARY BIGFOOT REPORTED IN CANADA
MISSION, British Columbia (AP) - A furry creature about seven feet tall lumbered across Highway 7 near this Fraser Valley community Sunday and made some believers in the legendary Sasquatch.
The sighting, 35 miles east of Vancouver, occurred as a Pacific Stage Lines bus driven by Pat Lindquist was westbound a mile east of Lake Erroch on the Harrison Hot Springs-to-Vancouver run.
The passengers and Lindquist saw ahead of the bus a glimpse of something they all described as a seven-foot tall, 300-pound beast with dark brown to black fur or hair and a light-colored face.
"At first we thought it was a prankster in a fur suit," said Lindquist, 28, a reserve Vancouver city police officer. "But people were shouting 'what is it, what is it', so I slammed on the brakes to have a look.
"To tell the truth, I thought it was someone trying to con us so I took off after it. I guess I thought I was going to pull off his hat and bawl him out. I don't know why I did it. I'm not sure I really intended to catch up with it."
Lindquist, who police here describe as "very nervous and pale" when they arrived on the scene, later described what happened when he gave pursuit.
"The first thing I noticed was the smell...a horrible smell like very rotten meat. The bush was thick and I was pushing the branches apart when I saw it about 20 or 25 feet away. I just couldn't believe it."
"At first I was mad. But then I went to awe and then to fright and I began to shake. I couldn't stop shaking and then I got out of there." The smell has been a common element in the reports from numerous people who claim to have been close to the Sasquatch, also known as Bigfoot.
Lindquist, who is 6-foot-2, said the thing before him was no more than seven feet tall, only "much heavier than I am." "It had flat, flared nostrils like a monkey and large, wide eyes. It didn't make any sound except heavy breathing. It had a broad chest and it was heavy up and down."
"It could have taken two steps and grabbed me, but it didn't do anything. It didn't growl. It didn't show its teeth. It just looked at me." Lindquist said the hair on its face was a light brown and "it appeared to have the mange; the skin underneath looked kind of white."
© Oklahoma City Times; Monday, May 16, 1977 Credit: T. Adams, article courtesy Ron Schaffner's Creature Chronicles
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billr
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Post by billr on Mar 14, 2012 22:41:48 GMT -5
Here is the rest of the story SASQUATCH HUNTER CAN'T BELIEVE MONSTER SIGHTING IS JUST A HOAX
New Westminster (CP) - Radio Station CKNW broadcast reports Monday that a Sasquatch sighted 10 days ago near Erroch Lake in the Fraser Valley was a hoax perpetrated by three persons, but veteran Sasquatch hunter Rene Dahinden wants proof.
The radio station said three persons faked large footprints using plaster casts and one of them dressed up in a fur suit. Dahinden said in an interview he'd like to see the suit. "If they can produce the evidence that this was a hoax, I would like to see it. The hoax would be more important than a real Sasquatch sighting...it would teach us a lesson to smarten up."
Dahinden said he heard similar reports of a hoax involving the legendary ape-like forest creature. "It (the report) claimed the three persons involved would also fake sightings in Washington, Oregon and California." "CKNW doesn't know whether or not it was a hoax because it doesn't have any evidence. Let them produce the fur suit and the material used to make the footprints."
Dahinden said he was in the Fraser Valley community of Mission when RCMP questioned Pacific Stage Lines bus driver Pat Lindquist who reported seeing the sasquatch a mile east of Lake Erroch on his run from Harrison Hot Springs to Vancouver.
"The questioning was very professional and I cannot see how Lindquist could have mistaken a man in a fur suit for the real thing." "Maybe my view was colored but if there was a hoax, let's see them re-enact the whole thing." Dahinden said Lindquist would have to be in a state of shock to make such a mistake.
© Victoria Times; Tuesday, May 24, 1977 Credit Source: Ron Schaffner's Creature Chronicles
- ---Third follow-up article:
'BIGFOOT' WAS JUST MAN IN MONKEY SUIT
VANCOUVER, Canada (AP) - A bus driver and several passengers who reported seeing the legendary man-beast Sasquatch were tricked by four practical jokers using a $200 monkey suit and shoulder pads, according to the hoaxsters.
"It was a good practical joke, we thought it might fool a few people," said Ken Ticehurst, the 5-foot-11, 165-pound man who dressed up in the gorilla costume. "I was running like O.J. Simpson."
The pranksters said the hoax took three weeks to prepare, including buying the suit from a costume shop, manufacturing a foot to make a footprint, checking bus schedules so enough people would see it "to make it more believable" and planting a phony witness on the bus to make the first move and get passengers excited.
The reported sighting occurred on May 15 as Pat Lindquist was driving a Pacific Stage Lines bus westbound on the Harrison Hot Springs, British Columbia-to-Vancouver run May 15 when he and several passengers saw what they thought was a Sasquatch lumber across Highway 7 about 35 miles east of Vancouver.
Lindquist stopped the bus and pursued the creature into the bush. "At first we thought it was a prankster in a fur suit," said Lindquist, a 28-year-old Vancouver city policeman, at the time of the incident.
"It had flat, flared nostrils like a monkey and large white eyes. It didn't make any sound except heavy breathing." Ticehurst, 24, of Port Coquitlam, revealed the scam Thursday in an interview on a radio talk show along with Don Ticehurst, 26, and Rene Quesnel, 19 of Port Moody. The three said they planned the stunt with Gordon Jacobi, 26.
They said they based their pattern for a resin-cast Sasquatch foot on a book about the creature by Don Hunter and Rene Dahinden.
Don Ticehurst, one of six passengers on the early morning bus, said he "had to act pretty excited. Some people were still asleep." Royal Canadian Mounted Police Constable Bob Eyford, who did some independent investigation, said he's convinced the pranksters are telling the truth.
For years, stories have persisted that the gorilla-sized Sasquatch, North America's version of the Abominable Snowman, lives in the woods of the Pacific Northwest.
From time to time sightings are reported and there is at least one photograph of an alleged Sasquatch, although it looks more like a blurry picture of a gorilla. Several books and articles have been written about the beast.
© San Antonio, Texas; Evening News; Friday, May 27, 1977 Credit: Tom Adams
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Richard
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Thinking I should be out in the bush ...
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Post by Richard on Mar 15, 2012 9:44:57 GMT -5
Interesting story indeed. A few good points:
That even IF the evidence looks good, it can be a fake.
People MAY claim responsibility for something to simply get into the limelight.
On the other hand, a point to remember is that even a factual event can be faked, otherwise horror movies wouldn't be very good would they? ;D
R
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billr
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Post by billr on Mar 15, 2012 23:14:57 GMT -5
I remember that gorilla suit hanging in the front window of the old Krack-a-joke shop in Maple Ridge We have to keep an open mind, but we also have to do our due diligence when investigating claims
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